The current "meta" for endgame PvP

[Folder]

First off this is not a condemnation of anyone using these tactics, they are viable and part of current gameplay. I have some opinions and I'm wondering how other people feel about this too...

Over the last week Silh/Defiance/Stasis have had some great PvP fights and it's been quite fun. That said the current "meta", if you will, for large-scale pvp fights consists of 2 things:

1) Group Fade
I've brought this up before! Fading your entire group is the current strategy for large fights. It denies the ability to click attack, denies the ability to see who the party leader is of course you can't see everyone that is in a room. It forces macros to be made, and forces attacks to be typed out in the meantime. It is incredibly strong and the initial advantage it gives is huge.

The problem? It doesn't wear off on hostile actions. So the final product is 2 6man groups (or more!) all swinging away at each other while faded. The gameplay feels odd and, as I have said before, will be a crippling disadvantage for anyone on a future tablet/mobile client.

Proposed solution: Fade breaks on hostile actions. Keep it viable for a surprise attack, but don't let people fight it out for X minutes at a time while invisible.

2) Ghosting (running back after death)
As it stands now running back to fights after death is very easy to do, even in dreads where there are traps. It is almost to the point of trivializing kills, especially in small scale fights where it takes a number of rounds to drop someone. In 3v3, for example, the first dead person may be back before anyone else dies.

Proposed solution: "Respawn" timer for level 25s. Upon death you can not move for...20 seconds? Not sure on exact time. Long enough to have an impact but not long enough to be terribly annoying. Maybe have it only go into effect if killed by another player?

Yes, you can get around this timer by having multiple alts camped at a location. That's a different topic though.

What do you guys think? Again this is not any sort of condemnation for using these tactics, especially since we use them too. I'm trying to improve overall gameplay here and these things bother me - they don't feel right.

[daedroth]

1) Fade: I already posted on Fade. I do not like it. I think attacking should break the effect. It just makes the combats silly.

2) Zombie Attack: An alternative solution would be "injuries" or "weakened state". Some games have this. Basically you can run back to the fight after being templed, but until you are inactive for X amount of time you have a -2 to all stats (or some such - could be capped at X amount of injuries). And have it accrue.

[Honzo]

The problem? It doesn't wear off on hostile actions. So the final product is 2 6man groups (or more!) all swinging away at each other while faded. The gameplay feels odd and, as I have said before, will be a crippling disadvantage for anyone on a future tablet/mobile client.

Proposed solution: Fade breaks on hostile actions. Keep it viable for a surprise attack, but don't let people fight it out for X minutes at a time while invisible.

Proposed solution: "Respawn" timer for level 25s. Upon death you can not move for...20 seconds? Not sure on exact time. Long enough to have an impact but not long enough to be terribly annoying. Maybe have it only go into effect if killed by another player?

These are both interesting ideas.
I agree with the Fade thing. I just dont see any reason to have complete hidden battles. Even conceptually it sounds insane and very unfun. Id like to at LEAST have a way to know who is in the room lmao. I've not been in the invisible wars but it seems like a good idea to prevent them from happening yet still giving strategic use to the spell.

Respawn timer? Interesting idea but I don't think that'd ever happen. It just comes with problems of its own like you said.

[Terron]

searching or spotting should just be passive, a % chance to break hide/fade/autosneak. that way everytime a hidden character enters square it may be revealed. perhaps spot % = to half of your intelligence. (the only foreseeable problem is with backstabs but that should be changed to a lower multiplier * remaining stam anyway. like 2.0x damage and all stamina used. a much simpler 1 and done per round)

i think the physical stamina draining search should remain aswell and work on fade.

[Folder]

1) Fade: I already posted on Fade. I do not like it. I think attacking should break the effect. It just makes the combats silly.

2) Zombie Attack: An alternative solution would be "injuries" or "weakened state". Some games have this. Basically you can run back to the fight after being templed, but until you are inactive for X amount of time you have a -2 to all stats (or some such - could be capped at X amount of injuries). And have it accrue.

Didn't think of an injury/weakened state. That could work as well! Just trying to think of something to discourage all of us from running back to the same fight in an endless stream.

Not sure how I feel about chance to be spotted, I think that's what search is for now. Perhaps having search find faded people?

[CGI]

Chanters should get an anti-fade spell.

[Folder]

As in a dispel magic type of thing? If you cast it on a square with someone Faded it will expose them? Could be a cool idea.

[CGI]

Either a room effect or targeted effect, then should disable re-fade for set amount of time.

Another option is anti-fade should be added to fairiefire if it isn't part of the spell already.

[NiteHawk]

FF could be an anti-fade tactic, thats a good idea. Having it effect everyone is too extreme and ruins fade completely if you want some other propositions in place, like stopping on an hostile action.

I can see fade stopping on an action that triggers the combat timer, however, only on your end. This is going to require some code fixes though since the combat timer doesn't define what's hostile and whats not really. I don't think it needs to go any more past this, otherwise you gimp the use of fade completely. It should not be searched out, it is not a searchable action, I.E. hiding.

---

Ghosting is an issue but the 20 second delay won't solve anything. Weakened states normally work fine though.

Normally with weakened states, PVP would inflict a longer timer (including pets), and PVE would have a far less impact. For example, in PVE it would last 30 seconds only. In PVP it might last 2 minutes, maybe more, depends on what we can agree is a better time. I have an idea though.

If you zombie, your stats will continue to get worse until your character is completely worthless and even if it is on field, you'd die like a brick.

In PVP:
1st death: 2 minute timer and -2 to all stats.
2nd death: 5 minute timer and -4 to all stats.
3rd death: 10 minute timer and -6 to all stats.
4th death and up: 10 (or 15) minute timer and -20 to all stats.

This obviously won't help if people switch characters to PVP. I don't know what to do in that case but eventually they will run out of characters to use that aren't in a weakend state. You would actually have to be on for the set time above for it to reset, you can't just log off for 10 minutes and come back.

PVE doesn't need to do anything serious, I'd say always 30 seconds but increase the stats each time. It's not a big deal though whatever we do on the PVE side long as its short so let's not dwaddle about it.

The times can be changed depending on how everyone feels is acceptable.

[Folder]

I like weakened state, and yea definitely agree that this is about PvP not PvE so the penalty needn't be as severe. 30 seconds is fine for PvE imo.

Your proposed timers/stat debuffs sound like a fine starting point to me. I htink -2 sounds like it's enough of a compromise that maybe people will want to run back, but they'll be making a sacrifice to do so.

Re: switching alts. Shrug, whatever I guess. I've never thought of a good solution to this one but it's not really a huge deal (maybe will be after this tho lol).

Re: fade. I'm not sure that a druid would realistically be combating a group of 6 faded people. If you sit out of morph to cast FF you're just asking to get wrecked. I think it's a fine idea and I can see it going in, but fade stopping on an action is the better solution to the group fade fights.